9 September 2016 - 11:17 EDT
Good call Keats.
Yes, this is already in NSL mod and should be active during the season.
We will look into this, good reminder.
The NSL Competitive Mod - old thread
Good call Keats.
Yes, this is already in NSL mod and should be active during the season.
We will look into this, good reminder.
11 September 2016 - 20:15 EDT
Next couple of ideas being considered for comp mod:
1) Removing ability for aliens that stay alive to keep an ability when a hive is destroyed that puts you under the required biomass (spores for example). Considering changing this so that when the hive is destroyed that puts you under the required biomass, you lose that ability immediately and not only when you die like in vanilla.
2) Reducing crush effect on lerk spikes. Lerk spikes do more damage to armor with crush than without crush. This may be removed as this might make team fights with lerks more difficult for marines if lerk spikes are doing more damage to armor.
Please let me know what people think of these 2 ideas and any other ideas for comp mod as we get closer to the season.
1) Removing ability for aliens that stay alive to keep an ability when a hive is destroyed that puts you under the required biomass (spores for example). Considering changing this so that when the hive is destroyed that puts you under the required biomass, you lose that ability immediately and not only when you die like in vanilla.
2) Reducing crush effect on lerk spikes. Lerk spikes do more damage to armor with crush than without crush. This may be removed as this might make team fights with lerks more difficult for marines if lerk spikes are doing more damage to armor.
Please let me know what people think of these 2 ideas and any other ideas for comp mod as we get closer to the season.
11 September 2016 - 20:19 EDT
Until aliens start winning somewhere close to 50% of the time, I'm not so sure we need more alien nerfs.
aaa
11 September 2016 - 20:26 EDT
It's also about what plays better competitively. The lerk spikes with crush is a trade off. The hive going down and not removing biomass needed abilities seems like it makes killing a hive less important which seems wrong for comp play. I think the 2nd idea isn't necessarily needed, but I like the first idea. Also, it seems like aliens are winning gathers a lot lately as the extra skulk hp also seems to be making a difference. Hard to tell how balanced the mod is unless you have the best players playing against each other though.
11 September 2016 - 20:31 EDT
Didn't lifeforms keep their abilities in old comp mod? It's there for a reason and I think it's good because it gives aliens the chance to come back, and not make losing a hive GG.
aaa
11 September 2016 - 20:32 EDT
Last time we had the best players playing against each other, marines won every single round.
aaa
11 September 2016 - 20:44 EDT
I believe there was something in the old comp mod to change this from vanilla so you did lose an ability if the hive going down put you under the required biomass.
11 September 2016 - 22:08 EDT
They did not, it was actually a change from vanilla (exactly like the idea proposed above).
I feel like upgrades should really really really be removed as soon as you don't have enough biomass for it. Just imagine an umbra lerk focusing only on staying alive and umbraing in team fights... that alone is worth SO MUCH...
But something completely different that people have not even been paying attention to AT ALL is crush. I reallly feel like crush spikes can be very very op if used correctly, not only based on theorycraft but also based on recent gathers where I have tried them. I think we should reduce their effectiveness to 50% basically. This would still keep them kinda viable for resbiting lerks and increased armor spike damage, but take them out of the OP ZONE.
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
12 September 2016 - 10:11 EDT
Nerf it if it is op, but do not remove it. There should atleast a little bit of choice of what upgrades to use.
12 September 2016 - 10:58 EDT
Actually maybe change it to 75%.... 50% might be too much of a nerf considering how strong regen and cara are...
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
12 September 2016 - 12:21 EDT
This is a good idea. So it seems like people so far don't want it removed, but it can have a nerf. So I will look into this as I think this is easy to do.
Hopefully removing the abilities as soon as a hive goes down is easy as I think this should be changed.
Regarding the hitboxes, health changes. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this. Some people seem to want all hitboxes reverted, others may like how the reg feels right now overall. Let me know what people think and weigh also what would need to be changed. Right now we have skulks with more health, more speed, bigger bite cones, and bigger hitboxes than old comp mod. Lerks have bigger hitboxes and more armor than old comp mod. Fades have old hitboxes, larger swipe cone (I think the height was increased), and same hp unless I missed something from old comp mod.
12 September 2016 - 12:36 EDT
Id be for:
-revert skulk changes and hitbox
-let lerk changes be
-fade with old hitbox is fine
Lerk felt rly bad before think the changes arent too op. Skulk though oh boy...
-revert skulk changes and hitbox
-let lerk changes be
-fade with old hitbox is fine
Lerk felt rly bad before think the changes arent too op. Skulk though oh boy...
12 September 2016 - 16:11 EDT
I'm fine either way re: abilities on hive loss.
As for spikes and crush - I feel like we need more experimentation before any changes are made. I just haven't seen many lerks using this in gathers yet, probably out of habit more than anything else. It could be op, but keep in mind that it should be very easy to drive a spiking lerk away, given hitbox changes - and without cara or regen, the lerk will probably need to run all the way back to the hive to heal.
As for spikes and crush - I feel like we need more experimentation before any changes are made. I just haven't seen many lerks using this in gathers yet, probably out of habit more than anything else. It could be op, but keep in mind that it should be very easy to drive a spiking lerk away, given hitbox changes - and without cara or regen, the lerk will probably need to run all the way back to the hive to heal.
17 September 2016 - 14:28 EDT
We will be working on the additional changes to comp mod before the season starts so I would appreciate some feedback as we get closer to the season on these changes/ideas:
1) Removing abilities for aliens like spores when a hive goes down and puts you under the required biomass (changing it to instant removal of ability opposed to after you die like in vanilla)
2) Considering moving lerk armor buff from 10 to 5. I think it should be a slight buff from vanilla with the hitbox change on the lerk and to give lerks a little more going into a fight. I don't want lerks to be too tanky though. Consider 2 lerks staying together when they first pop. Are they too tanky with cara and the 10 armor buff or is it playing well?
3) Capping skulk hp increase from biomass. The idea is, skulks mid to late game may be tough to kill with the hp increase of vanilla and when you're already fighting lerks and fades. Or when a skulk is using leap to get behind the lines. Thinking of capping health increase from biomass only on skulks after around biomass 4 or 5 (which would give slightly easier time to weapon 2 marines in the mid to late game). I think this could make team fights better, but not sure what other people think.
4) Nerf crush with lerk spikes - as hobbes pointed out in the above post - this may work with the trade off of not having regen or cara, but perhaps a slight nerf is needed.
5) Slightly reduce shotgun spread (right now it has a nerf from vanilla) - is the shotgun spread too large right now where it's hard to get consistent meat shots/do enough damage with a shotgun?
6) Gorge tunnels: should gorge tunnels be changed to old comp mod or kept like it is now which is same as vanilla. I would think positives of keeping it like vanilla, it is easier for a pub player to understand what to do, and it's a nerf to a gorge changing their aggressive tunnel spot mid round. Disadvantages are it might be annoying to not be able to move your tunnel spot easily without it going down first or without building another one in base first.
7) Mist off of infestation: right now you can mist off of infestation. You can't mist an rt to counter the damage it's taking off infestation (in comp mod), but you can mist a player's egg for example off infestation. Should this be changed?
1) Removing abilities for aliens like spores when a hive goes down and puts you under the required biomass (changing it to instant removal of ability opposed to after you die like in vanilla)
2) Considering moving lerk armor buff from 10 to 5. I think it should be a slight buff from vanilla with the hitbox change on the lerk and to give lerks a little more going into a fight. I don't want lerks to be too tanky though. Consider 2 lerks staying together when they first pop. Are they too tanky with cara and the 10 armor buff or is it playing well?
3) Capping skulk hp increase from biomass. The idea is, skulks mid to late game may be tough to kill with the hp increase of vanilla and when you're already fighting lerks and fades. Or when a skulk is using leap to get behind the lines. Thinking of capping health increase from biomass only on skulks after around biomass 4 or 5 (which would give slightly easier time to weapon 2 marines in the mid to late game). I think this could make team fights better, but not sure what other people think.
4) Nerf crush with lerk spikes - as hobbes pointed out in the above post - this may work with the trade off of not having regen or cara, but perhaps a slight nerf is needed.
5) Slightly reduce shotgun spread (right now it has a nerf from vanilla) - is the shotgun spread too large right now where it's hard to get consistent meat shots/do enough damage with a shotgun?
6) Gorge tunnels: should gorge tunnels be changed to old comp mod or kept like it is now which is same as vanilla. I would think positives of keeping it like vanilla, it is easier for a pub player to understand what to do, and it's a nerf to a gorge changing their aggressive tunnel spot mid round. Disadvantages are it might be annoying to not be able to move your tunnel spot easily without it going down first or without building another one in base first.
7) Mist off of infestation: right now you can mist off of infestation. You can't mist an rt to counter the damage it's taking off infestation (in comp mod), but you can mist a player's egg for example off infestation. Should this be changed?
17 September 2016 - 15:02 EDT
1) I like how it is in vanilla. It rewards staying alive and doesn't fuck over aliens that much if a hive goes down in a close game.
6) I liked the feature in the old compmod. Back then even really bad pub players understood the concept after explaining it to them.
7) Mist off infestation allows for some MLG evolving spots in vents, i think it can stay though.
6) I liked the feature in the old compmod. Back then even really bad pub players understood the concept after explaining it to them.
7) Mist off infestation allows for some MLG evolving spots in vents, i think it can stay though.
17 September 2016 - 15:06 EDT
Lerks should keep the 10 armor buff. its already quite easy to kill lerks. You can nerf crush spikes abit
Regarding the gorge tunnels. (it is easier for a pub player to understand what to do) for that reason you should not even consider keeping vanilla tunnel. If there is a player who doesn't understand how the complicated 2 button tunnel works i think he should play some other lifeform. Also with the old comp tunnel you can do more quick decision plays.
Regarding the gorge tunnels. (it is easier for a pub player to understand what to do) for that reason you should not even consider keeping vanilla tunnel. If there is a player who doesn't understand how the complicated 2 button tunnel works i think he should play some other lifeform. Also with the old comp tunnel you can do more quick decision plays.
17 September 2016 - 19:17 EDT
Ok I will look into having an entry and exit gorge tunnel added to comp mod. I will also be probably nerfing lerk spikes with crush.
18 September 2016 - 09:03 EDT
I still don't think anyone is having trouble landing meatshots at all unless they're bad. I really think if anyone ever blames this it's gonna be because they missed and need something to blame, it's the nature of ns2 tbh. One of the problems is you can't nerf lerk armor again, then increase shotgun damage to them AND make them lose upgrades on hive death (and nerf crush spikes and skulk hp)
Imo this should be changed. Just think about a marine trying to kill eggs. It's gonna be literally impossible because lerks and fades can just egg in vents. That's pretty stupid and should totally be reverted. I didnt even know about this lol.
@spikes changing the damage conversion to maybe 75% or 80% effectiveness should be enough to nerf them for now I think. Problem is most people are not gonna notice the difference anyway so this is really hard to balance correctly.
As for gorgetunnels I think it's quite a good nerf to aggressive gorgetunnels as it is right now, but at the same time it's really annoying for gorgeplayers to lose all the mobility you'd have with it. I don't really know what to think about this.
Keep up the good work daddy deck and steelcap!
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
18 September 2016 - 11:25 EDT
You could make mist only work on the pathing mesh like it is with gorge tunnels. Vent mists would be impossible then but you could still mist off infestation.
18 September 2016 - 12:17 EDT
you can mist the floor right next to vents - it'll still reach eggs.......
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
18 September 2016 - 13:23 EDT
Ok well I am definitely going to be nerfing lerk spikes with crush and removing the ability to nutrient mist off infestation. Hopefully those are easy changes that can be done relatively soon. I'll update the post and make sure the description on the mod is updated as well.
18 September 2016 - 13:56 EDT
Yeah, but with how much on the lerk spikes? :) i mean in %
18 September 2016 - 13:57 EDT
aaa
18 September 2016 - 15:19 EDT
Not sure yet. I still want it to be different than without crush so hopefully I can find a middle ground that nerfs them a little vs armor (still more than normal spikes) and gives them a little more damage vs health (more than current crush spikes).
Edit**Latest changes to comp mod**
Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes 7% > 4.5%
Nutrient Mist requires infestation to place.
*Update of things to consider going forward*:
Gorge tunnels - do they need to be changed from vanilla? I've heard people wanting them changed and I've also heard maybe it's a good nerf to aggressive tunnels to not have the entry/exit option. If the current tunnels work, I may keep it as is.
Removing abilities once you lose required biomass - does this need to be changed from vanilla? I've heard both arguments on this idea as well. Some people may like that it gives aliens a better chance when the hive goes down and gives value in staying alive (in vanilla), others might think it plays better competitively if abilities are tied directly to biomass at that instant (old comp mod).
Both of these ideas also require potentially more coding than simple changing of values. If the mod is playing well as is, not sure if these need to be changed. Please share your thoughts.
19 September 2016 - 15:31 EDT
It would be fantastic to put the mod somewhere like GitHub. This allows people to see what is in the mod at all times. It can also ease some of Steel's load by letting other people write prospective code for the mod. Steel not sure he can add a feature? Maybe someone else with free time can.
21 September 2016 - 11:40 EDT
In my recent matches it seems like lerks have been going down quite easily. Have there been lots of complaints that I just haven't been hearing? In my (admittedly limited) experience with the mod, it hasn't seemed like aliens are totally dominating early game with the lerks. So what's the motivation here?
21 September 2016 - 11:45 EDT
They went down because of questionable decisions though. I dont think the armor buff is too op considering the hitboxes are way bigger now tbh
21 September 2016 - 12:06 EDT
I appreciate all the lerks coming to defend the armor buff (you guys have the most knowledge on it). But yea, no plans to remove the 10 armor buff at this time as it seems to be playing pretty well. I just wanted to make sure 2 lerks with cara wasn't op'd.
22 September 2016 - 12:10 EDT
Latest possible changes:
1) I've already discussed the removing abilities when you lose a hive that puts you under required biomass - this will be changed in comp mod if possible. I am already looking into this, so no more discussion needed on this idea.
2) Reverting lerk hitboxes - this idea is similar to what we did with the fade. I thought it was more important with the fade as fades were getting destroyed competitively and I didn't want to offset the balance of the game by increasing fade hp by too much. Lerk's still have the new hitboxes in comp mod and it might not be ideal for comp play. We could revert the lerk hitboxes and then I can remove the lerk armor buff. Then lerks can spike again and the game might feel better competitively. Share thoughts.
3) We are thinking of making changes to mines. The mine changes we are considering; change health of mines to 50, you only get 1 mine and cost is 5 pres, cut research time in half, and increase the time the mine becomes active (so the time between when you place it and it works) to 5-8 seconds. Share thoughts.
1) I've already discussed the removing abilities when you lose a hive that puts you under required biomass - this will be changed in comp mod if possible. I am already looking into this, so no more discussion needed on this idea.
2) Reverting lerk hitboxes - this idea is similar to what we did with the fade. I thought it was more important with the fade as fades were getting destroyed competitively and I didn't want to offset the balance of the game by increasing fade hp by too much. Lerk's still have the new hitboxes in comp mod and it might not be ideal for comp play. We could revert the lerk hitboxes and then I can remove the lerk armor buff. Then lerks can spike again and the game might feel better competitively. Share thoughts.
3) We are thinking of making changes to mines. The mine changes we are considering; change health of mines to 50, you only get 1 mine and cost is 5 pres, cut research time in half, and increase the time the mine becomes active (so the time between when you place it and it works) to 5-8 seconds. Share thoughts.
22 September 2016 - 12:32 EDT
2) YES PLEASE. So from what I understand only skulk and gorge would have the new hitboxes then?
3) Also good change. Mines are too easy to para kill and being better able to decide how much res to spend on mines is just better because more control. But then make it able to carry 2 or 3 mines at once.
Why would you increase the time for it becoming active?
3) Also good change. Mines are too easy to para kill and being better able to decide how much res to spend on mines is just better because more control. But then make it able to carry 2 or 3 mines at once.
Why would you increase the time for it becoming active?