New Comp Mod?

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7 July 2016 - 23:29 CEST
#1
Yo guys, looks like there are actually some people again who would like to make a new comp mod again.

I would really appreciate that but the two questions are: NSL willing to try out next season with a comp mod again? It could be tested and adjusted in the meantime.

And: What EXACTLY should be changed?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=719090669
Rammler
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7 July 2016 - 23:34 CEST
#2
i am in.

important changes: Go back to 290.

-remove health bars
-reset pres gain to default
-remove the boneshild crap
-make cysts die again
-make the hmg great again
-remove rupture


that would be the most important things.....
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7 July 2016 - 23:54 CEST
#3
I think many of the changes already listed would be great. If we want a reduced version of changes that might balance the game more, but still work with some of the changes made:

1) Change Alien pres, either back to the way it was or limit alien pres so you can't re-lerk or re-fade right away. Or change all pres back to the way it was.
2) Remove movement nerf to machine guns.
3) Remove Focus
4) Change boneshield back to the way it was or limit the armor you get back from using it to 25% or 50% of your full armor.

I think you could keep cysts the same way they are now and see how it plays out.

So far we will have a mod that should have the following changes:
1)reduced alien pres when fade or lerk - might change pres back to way it was before the increase.
2) movement for machine guns has been changed to same as shotguns.
3) Boneshield armor regen has been cut in half.
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8 July 2016 - 01:51 CEST
#4
Personally, I believe the only changes that should be done at the moment are:

- reverting Pres changes (reduce the tickrate back to 1 instead of 1.25, make lerks 20 again, and start with 15)
- Nerf Boneshield a little... 10 - 20% reduction to the heal and damage reduction.

After that, see how the game plays, after all we want to keep it as close to Vanilla as we possibly can, there is no reason to change things back to "how they were", no reason to remove most of what has been added/changed... the idea would be to make a balanced 6 vs 6 environment of the game AS IT IS NOW.
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8 July 2016 - 03:06 CEST
#5
Kash says
Personally, I believe the only changes that should be done at the moment are:

- reverting Pres changes (reduce the tickrate back to 1 instead of 1.25, make lerks 20 again, and start with 15)
- Nerf Boneshield a little... 10 - 20% reduction to the heal and damage reduction.

After that, see how the game plays, after all we want to keep it as close to Vanilla as we possibly can, there is no reason to change things back to "how they were", no reason to remove most of what has been added/changed... the idea would be to make a balanced 6 vs 6 environment of the game AS IT IS NOW.


Well I am trying to change as little as possible but take the op'd stuff out of the game. Yes reducing the pres changed make the most sense probably. I did think the machine gun movement had to be changed to at least equal the shotgun movement or it's not fun to use. And the boneshield armor regen was reduced by half which is a starting point. Let's see how it plays out.
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8 July 2016 - 04:14 CEST
#6
Just so you know, you are not the only one working on a mod at the moment... Mephilles is looking into doing the same thing to try to balance 6 vs 6 play.

I would recommend holding back as much as possible when thinking about balance and changes... the smaller the changes are from vanilla, the more likely we are to be able to grow the competitive community again... so only change what absolutely MUST be changed, don't try to revert to the past, embrace what the game is now and just balance that.
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8 July 2016 - 06:03 CEST
#7
Kash says
Just so you know, you are not the only one working on a mod at the moment... Mephilles is looking into doing the same thing to try to balance 6 vs 6 play.

I would recommend holding back as much as possible when thinking about balance and changes... the smaller the changes are from vanilla, the more likely we are to be able to grow the competitive community again... so only change what absolutely MUST be changed, don't try to revert to the past, embrace what the game is now and just balance that.


yeah that's why this pres change is very moderate change. You were suggesting to change the pres exactly back to the way it was before with the same starting pres. I think the changes done so far in the mod are very minor. I might agree with you though that the pres does need to be changed back to the way it was before, but I think the moderate change should be tested first. I also think focus should be played more in comp setting to see if it's too op'd at the moment. What are the TAW thoughts so far on focus?
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8 July 2016 - 07:46 CEST
#8
>made docking2
>is working on a balance mod
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
aaa
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8 July 2016 - 10:27 CEST
#9
maybe mephilles can cooperate with steelcap who is currently working on a new mod.
the more people give their feedback the better the result will be.

a lot of people are currently quitting because of the big changes and i don't think they will see this thread. maybe tico or zavaro can make a news on the main page so people will recognize that a hope is rising.
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8 July 2016 - 11:01 CEST
#10
@starcatereus: I'm a do it yourself man. If I don't like something I make my own version of it.

done
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8 July 2016 - 14:53 CEST
#11
Deckard says
Kash says
Just so you know, you are not the only one working on a mod at the moment... Mephilles is looking into doing the same thing to try to balance 6 vs 6 play.

I would recommend holding back as much as possible when thinking about balance and changes... the smaller the changes are from vanilla, the more likely we are to be able to grow the competitive community again... so only change what absolutely MUST be changed, don't try to revert to the past, embrace what the game is now and just balance that.


yeah that's why this pres change is very moderate change. You were suggesting to change the pres exactly back to the way it was before with the same starting pres. I think the changes done so far in the mod are very minor. I might agree with you though that the pres does need to be changed back to the way it was before, but I think the moderate change should be tested first. I also think focus should be played more in comp setting to see if it's too op'd at the moment. What are the TAW thoughts so far on focus?



Well, focus is a strange one, we've heard a lot of people say it is really OP, but its a high risk high reward upgrade... you attack 50% slower and cause 50% more damage.... your damage output is the same when it comes to Damage over time... but if a marine has 0 armour you can 1 hit them... but if you miss the marine has much longer to react.

My personal opinion is that focus is very situational... but may require tweaking because it is potentially OP in the right hands.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lets steer clear of derailing into debates about maps instead of mods, yeah? unless you are truly retarded, it should be relatively easy to understand the massive difference between the two.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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8 July 2016 - 15:04 CEST
#12
Kash says


Well, focus is a strange one, we've heard a lot of people say it is really OP, but its a high risk high reward upgrade... you attack 50% slower and cause 50% more damage.... your damage output is the same when it comes to Damage over time...


sure the damage over time is the same. but with a fade for example your not pressing the attack buton all the time. you are always blinking around and hoping to get one swip. you never attack with multiple attacks one after another. so at the end the real damage is much higher than before. i never felt the handicap of the 50% attackspeed loss
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8 July 2016 - 16:51 CEST
#13
Kash says
Personally, I believe [...]

Kash says
Just so you know, you are not the only one working on a mod at the moment... Mephilles is looking into doing the same thing to try to balance 6 vs 6 play.

Kash says
[...] embrace what the game is now [...]

Kash says
My personal opinion is that focus is very situational...


Kash says
Lets steer clear of derailing into debates about maps instead of mods, yeah?
Starcetereus says
>made docking2
>made docking2
>made docking2
>made docking2
>made docking2
>made docking2
>is working on a balance mod
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Kash says
Out with the old in with the new


You're pure gold bro, you should try getting into brexit politics. Although you might actually be too hardcore for those people...
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8 July 2016 - 18:03 CEST
#14
Do we need more than 1 mod trying to accomplish the same thing? You could make your own mod, but let's play test this one in some comp or 6v6 matches and see how it plays. If you would like to discuss the changes, that would be good. Hopefully we can all agree on the changes that make the game better.

Based on what people have said, it does seem like focus is op'd right now for fades. It may need to be removed from the game or changed a lot. Probably doesn't need to be in a 6v6 game.
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8 July 2016 - 18:10 CEST
#15
We likely don't "need" more than one mod... but there is also the chance that either mod could be refused by Zavaro or Tico... so it could all be for nothing.

The idea behind the mod mephilles and I were discussing was originally for TAW use to balance our internal play... but we thought that having the gather community use it would likely give use more useful feedback and allow people to enjoy gathers a little more.

Either way, I don't see the harm in having multiple mods.
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8 July 2016 - 18:14 CEST
#16
Kash says
We likely don't "need" more than one mod... but there is also the chance that either mod could be refused by Zavaro or Tico... so it could all be for nothing.

The idea behind the mod mephilles and I were discussing was originally for TAW use to balance our internal play... but we thought that having the gather community use it would likely give use more useful feedback and allow people to enjoy gathers a little more.

Either way, I don't see the harm in having multiple mods.


Yeah you can do that if you want. I would just strongly consider the changes people have been talking about like removing the movement nerf on machine guns so they are actually useful.

I would like to see how the new pres changes effect the game.
It would be nice if we could keep the new pres changes overall and have a small change like the one in the mod so that it isn't that noticed from the players playing the game. You still get lerk/fade/onos at same time, you still start with the same res as in vanilla - but possibly nerfs the skilled players on aliens from getting life forms again too quickly. This is going to need a lot of testing to see if it makes any difference.

I do think the boneshield armor regen needs to be very nerfed or totally removed from comp play. I'm trying the 50% nerf, but it might have to go to full removal of that part of boneshield. Focus probably needs to be removed as mentioned before but I didn't want a feature that is just blank or something you can't click on. Not sure what else to do with it.
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8 July 2016 - 18:25 CEST
#17
Mephilles says
@starcatereus: I'm a do it yourself man. If I don't like something I make my own version of it.

done


good response fam, +1 for being professional

Kash says
you are truly retarded


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I pay black people to fuck my wife while I watch from the closet, wearing a dress
aaa
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8 July 2016 - 18:37 CEST
#18
Well let's hope we can get test the things out the next days. And Kash, I would argue the mod by now doesn't change much, not even gameplay, only 3 values. Boneshield is INSANELY overpowered right now and the mechanic itself is just terrible designed and a reduction of 10 or 20% in efficiency would not do the trick here. 50% is a good start and one should see how it plays out. Personally I would love to completely remove it.

Focus is more difficult I think because by removing it you would make a pretty big change to vanilla, removing one possible upgrade option for aliens. It is also difficult to balance to make it viable for all lifeforms. But I would like to test it more first, I haven't seen much shade hive since it was introduced.

Opinion on pres is: The idea in the mod is good, the complete revert to .1 res per tick is better imo. I think where the different pres gain per lifeforms really shines is on pubs, imo in comp a .1 res gain for everyone works better. That being said, the current .125 gain for everyone is the worst.
Also onos comes too soon now and lerk does too, I would like to see an increase in lerk res to 20 again.

HMG NEEDS a buff. The faster movement in the mod sounds great and we should not forget that besides a balance standpoint moving very slowly and losing all your jetpack fuel in 1 second is just not fun.

I would also agree on Rammler that parasating rupture does not belong into the game, parasiting should always be an ability that belongs exclusive to the basic lifeform, the skulk. But this is only minor prioritiy at this stage imo, there are many bad changes like that like the new mist for example or health bars but atm we should focus on the most important ones.

Another crucial change they added I think would need fast addressing is the not dying cysts. Keeping infestation all over the map with the cyst chains destroyed is just broken. Not only that, it is extremely annoying to hunt and shoot every cyst down again and again. It is even more annoying versus competent alien commanders.
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8 July 2016 - 18:42 CEST
#19
^ good post - just want to test out the cysts and stuff first. Yes, being able to keep infestation and parasite marines seems like too much, but it might not play that terribly. If it's not fun to play and it pushes the balance in the aliens favor when they don't need it, then it should be changed. I think the alien pres, focus, boneshield, and machine gun are the major concerns. You could throw health bars in there too, but I think comp scene should possibly leave it in if it's a big part of the game in vanilla. Might be a buff to marines that they need with all the other changes. Even if it dumbs down the game.
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8 July 2016 - 19:44 CEST
#20
I will be the guy who shall ask 'what to prevent mod meltdowns again in the future?'.
Previous comp mod was way WAY to dependant on the modders who maintained it, and NS2 is in fast iteration.

Think how you will handle that first, or it will meltdown again in the (near) Future.
Every time it does we shall have less people left to pick up any pieces.
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8 July 2016 - 20:21 CEST
#21
with a proper use of the modloader mods shouldn't break with each update anymore (as far as I believe ghoul). Also if the modder would maintain the mod but not own it completely and give it to NSL instead then they can't take it offline
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8 July 2016 - 21:10 CEST
#22
If Ghoul says it should work, im inclined to believe it.
Your second point is a big if, but it could work nonetheless.
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8 July 2016 - 22:45 CEST
#23
Mephilles says
with a proper use of the modloader mods shouldn't break with each update anymore (as far as I believe ghoul). Also if the modder would maintain the mod but not own it completely and give it to NSL instead then they can't take it offline

Yea that's the thing. It does look like there is more than one person capable of and willing to work on a comp mod, so as long as the mod itself would be some kind of official NSL mod and owned by NSL, there should be no problem.
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9 July 2016 - 21:03 CEST
#24
i would suggest to test the new mods from mephilles, steelcap or deck in a gather. but we would need a server whose admin is willing to run it
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10 July 2016 - 01:10 CEST
#25
deano is
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#26
Thought I should chime in here and say that I really have no sense of ownership over the mod. Deck tells me changes you (he) would like to see, and I throw together a mod for it. No fuss no muss.
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#27
Steelcap says
Thought I should chime in here and say that I really have no sense of ownership over the mod. Deck tells me changes you (he) would like to see, and I throw together a mod for it. No fuss no muss.


Testing out new mod on No Rookies Pub Server at 2pm EST Sunday/Today if anyone is interested in trying it out and hopefully playing some better NS2 games.

Current Mod:
Alien life forms will gain personal res at a rate of .125
Onos, Fades and Lerks will gain 20% slower at .1
Machinegun weight has been lowered to match shotgun
Boneshield armor per second reduced to 0
Boneshield damage reduction increased to 75%
Boneshield cooldown reduced to 6.25 seconds
Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs.
Increased attack delay from focus from +50% to +75%

Mod is Called: Deck's Gameplay Tweaks
Workshop Link
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10 July 2016 - 11:28 CEST
#28
Deckard says
Steelcap says
Thought I should chime in here and say that I really have no sense of ownership over the mod. Deck tells me changes you (he) would like to see, and I throw together a mod for it. No fuss no muss.


Testing out new mod on No Rookies Pub Server at 2pm EST Sunday/Today if anyone is interested in trying it out and hopefully playing some better NS2 games.

Current Mod:
Alien life forms will gain personal res at a rate of .125
Onos, Fades and Lerks will gain 20% slower at .1
Machinegun weight has been lowered to match shotgun
Boneshield armor per second reduced to 0
Boneshield damage reduction increased to 75%
Boneshield cooldown reduced to 6.25 seconds
Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs.
Increased attack delay from focus from +50% to +75%

Mod is Called: Deck's Gameplay Tweaks
Workshop Link


unfortunatly i have no time today. out of home :(
dam.
i hope we can do this again next days
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10 July 2016 - 13:44 CEST
#29
Completely forgot that you could drop lifeform eggs. Yea that needed to be removed.

Why you decided to decrease focus attack speed instead of highering energy consumption?
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#30
Home says
Completely forgot that you could drop lifeform eggs. Yea that needed to be removed.

Why you decided to decrease focus attack speed instead of highering energy consumption?


There was some discussion that focus might not be used if it uses more energy and also it was easier to make this change. Might make additional changes to focus, but let's see how this plays out. Testing New Comp Mod today at 2pm est - No Rookies Pub.
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