Mephilles says

Just ask Kash where I accidently burned our acrs down to 70% health and the need for him to med the fuck out of teammates because of that. Meaning you can't even try to flame fades near teammates to drain their energy because you will do like 20-30 hp FF damage unless the marine actively tries to dodge the fade and the flames.

I mean FT doing FF damage is like Bilebomb doing FF damage. It doesn't make sense

The 70% was an over-exaggeration for comical effect meph :P

But yes, FT doing FF is fucking ridiculous. "it only does 1hp per tick", yes, but so does the burn, and the damage tickrate of both burn and flamethrower, to every teammate/structure in the area... add in spike damage and it literally means even if you want to use it, the flamethrower just cannot (read: "should not") be used.

One of the best uses for the FT is destroying spores and Bilebomb... but in order to do it you are burning your teammates.

Removing FF damage is an incredibly small buff, and it is something I would never normally suggest, but for the FT to be even remotely useable, FF needs to be removed... you can't support your teammates with the dedicated support weapon if everytime you try you're going to damage them and any of your own teams structures nearby.

I agree with Kash, that FT should not do any ff. It isnt used much, so why not try the buff. Since now the season is over and we can try out stuff.
Also the contamination can be nerfed in diffrent ways, eg HP and cooldown or removing bile or nerfing the biledamage from it so marines can fight it reasonably.
And to the lerk spores why is the only option to nerf it to move it to another hive or change it completly?
Why not nerf it´s cooldown (or damage) so it only can be used fewer and the lerks have to be accurater with its use? Instead of spamming it everywhere.

Does the FT actually do splash damage or is the damage removed/the "walls on fire effect" not spawned if you hit an actual alien?

Cause if it spawn anyways it definately should be fixed to not do that.
If it doesn't though, i see this as a learn to play issue. ff exists after all to make you consider your shots more carefully.

Regarding contamination: the already proposed nerf of the bile-damage should be enough (as long as the marines don't fucking waste their ammo on it while in an engagement!!! pls. like really.)

The Spore thing can't really be nerfed in other ways because it already is a really shitty ability UNLESS marines just happen to group up and push a hive or other location with a shift in it, at which point it is arguably slightly too strong.

btw do you remember back then with dragon's compmod that it had multiple revisions. Could we add a NSL compmod beta that will test changes we are uncertain about? This way we could test stuff without breaking the current compmod.

If anything works better than before: let's merge it to compmod
If it doesn't: don't merge it

Mephilles says

btw do you remember back then with dragon's compmod that it had multiple revisions. Could we add a NSL compmod beta that will test changes we are uncertain about? This way we could test stuff without breaking the current compmod.

If anything works better than before: let's merge it to compmod
If it doesn't: don't merge it

It's always nice when admins are well-informed

ROFL keats

Erm yea, friendly fire on flamethrowers IS a problem WHEN YOU FUCKING INTENTIONALLY SHOOT YOUR TEAMMATES WITH IT. You can't count in FT damage as a consistent damage on your team LOL. If you happen to hit your team with it on accident it's gonna do like 5 damage max, if you keep shooting your teammates of course youre gonna do more damage like..............................
Making flamethrower a SPAMMABLE TOOL for every fight just sounds dumb tbh. It isn't as bad as people think it is - if you're allowed to just shoot everywhere and swing around like a spastic while holding m1. (it counters umbra, bile, does consistent damage to every alien in the fight... and you have a shitton of ammo right? ammo was only reduced in old comp mod if i recall correctly)

Keats says

Mephilles says

btw do you remember back then with dragon's compmod that it had multiple revisions. Could we add a NSL compmod beta that will test changes we are uncertain about? This way we could test stuff without breaking the current compmod.

If anything works better than before: let's merge it to compmod
If it doesn't: don't merge it

It's always nice when admins are well-informed

Just goes to show how well the admin team communicates with each other and keeps each other in the loop.

Who's ready for another terrible season!?!?!?! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

@keats: yes I have close to no insight into the comp mod development or how the decisions are made within the compmod group

Also if there is a Compmod Beta great
Who is in the 6v6 playtest team for that?

Yes, there is a compmod beta. So if you have specific lines of code or changes to values please let us or steelcap know and we can see about adding it to beta mod to test it.

We hope to be making our initial changes to regular comp mod over the next few days to test in gathers. It's more difficult to test on the beta mod because you have to contact the admins of the servers and then play on that server. I still would prefer beta mod testing for things like flamethrower changes. I agree with Bauer though, why do we need to buff the Flamethrower? I just don't get it. So we want people to be able to hold down m1 and not hit arc's or any of their teammates? The argument seems to be bilebomb doesn't do team damage which is a good point. I just don't know if they are similar enough though, bilebomb and FT to make that argument.

inb4 "good point deck, you're the only one giving good arguments as to why all my ideas are bad. i shall now go back into hiding and think about the next idea i can post without thinking about it, see you tomorrow!"

Okay. I'm going to ignore Bauers sarcastic comment for a moment and explain why buffing something like the Flamethrower is a good idea. (even such a small buff that would cause very little difference to most games anyway)

Currently comp mod is focusing on making sure a certain tech path is as balanced as possible, and its doing it well even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes.
The problem with that is, every game feels incredibly similar to the previous... why? because nothing different is being used.

I'm by no means saying "flamethrower for the new meta". Nor am I saying that flamethrowers should be the new shotguns... I'm just saying that if you have a low reward weapon like the flamethrower... shouldn't it be a low risk weapon too?
Currently I think that the FT "could" have a nice place in the game, its never going to be seen every round like shotguns and armour upgrades, but removing FF would mean that we would occasionally see them used... which is an improvement on what we have now.

"ermagerd lern2pley"

This is the most common argument I see against it being tweaked, and to a certain extent it makes sense that people would react like that... but the simple fact is, the FT is not meant to be a lifeform killer, it is not meant to be a game ender... its meant to be a support weapon. supporting your team should be relatively easy.
Bilebomb doesn't cause friendly fire... and heal spray heals your team mates and hurts your enemy... Flamethrower just causes damage... too everything...

If I were to suggest that the flamethrower be changed so that - (incoming exaggerated argument that isn't intended seriously)
instead of causing damage to your teammates and friendly structures, it were to heal their armour at the same rate it causes damage to them now... people would go mental "that would be OP as shit, allowing a flamethrower to HEAL at that rate is too much"... okay, but causing damage to that extent is negligible... if the damage it causes is so tiny and insignificant, why would it causing that much as a heal be any different?

To be clear, I am not suggesting that, all i'm suggesting is that FTs have their FF turned off... Its a support weapon, not a lifeform killer, it shouldn't have such a high skill ceiling for something that is such a low reward.

I don't think we need to see more flamethrowers in comp, but I'm not against trying eliminating the friendly fire and seeing how it plays in gathers. I will review with people and see if others would like to try it.

Bauer their is only one reason I am doing this:

I want NSL comp mod to be balanced in all 3 dimensions I know balance. Those are:

- Balancing the winratios
- Balancing Itempower
- Balancing techpaths

Compmod is pretty good at balancing winratios so I have no problem here.

Balancing Techpaths it is doing slightly less good. On Alien side it seems like crag hive is the strongest and this is what you see most of the time. The choice for the second hive is quite balanced though, but if we just want to go for techpaths balance on hive types then no matter what hivetype you choose as first, second or third hive should give you the same chance of winning (or atleast somewhat close to that).

On marine side I don't see much variation in techpaths aswell. Basically what I see most of the time is the decision of arcs vs jetpacks and sometimes you research mines in between. And things like robo first strats seem to be completely underpowered.

Balancing Itempower that every weapon, upgrade and ability will have relatively the same effectivity depending on cost and unlock time. Meaning weapon, upgrades and abilities that are unlocked in lategame will ofcourse be stronger compared to early game upgrades but you also have to balance the upgrades that can come out at the same time between each other aswell. For example you can have shotgun and FT pretty much at the same time (depends if you choose to go AA before shotguntech or shotguntech before AA). FT only costs 12 pres compared to the shotgun that costs 20 pres. This means mathematically the FT should have 60% of the effectivity of the shotgun.

No effectivity does not mean damage. It is hard to put a value to how effective a weapon is, especially if they have fundamentally a different purpose.

Anyway hoping that you understood everything I tried to explain to all of you above, I hope that you will try to change NSL compmod in a way that it is balanced for 6v6 in all of those dimensions. You don't need to change a single mechanic in order to make that work. Just values. This way Compmod still stays close to vanilla.

The following requests have been submitted for changes to Comp Mod, should be updated at this time:

1) function Gorge:GetAirFriction()
local speedFraction = self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() / self:GetMaxSpeed()
return math.max(0.15 * speedFraction, 0.12) - We went over possible changes to initial speed, but it was decided this allows for gorges to keep their initial speed, but would decrease the max speed gorges can move around the map which is really high right now.
2) Move spores to biomass 7 and kSporesDustDamagePerSecond = 20
3) +kMineHealth = 70 kMineArmor = 5
4) kMetabolizeHealthRegain = 10
5) Remove lockdown timer on exos
6) Reduce bilebomb from Contamination from 3 to 1

Let's test these in the gathers for today and make sure everything is working. Provide feedback as you would like. I still have to discuss the flame thrower request with people. I will keep you updated.

For the sake of this thread, let's please avoid the ad hominem arguments; both passive and aggressive. Of course people won't always agree on a subjective matter like "balance", especially when the nature of this game goes well beyond being your run-of-the-mill FPS.

So, with that said:
Let me say thank you to Deck and all involved with the comp mod team who continuously revamp the mod and strive for improvement. It's not an easy duty and it does take a lot of time and consideration. We do appreciate it.

As for my own personal positions, which are not easy to express in a consolidated manner:
1) Let's see how the spores play - or don't play since they'll never be researched on BM7! (fine, very rarely at least) … ;)

2) Deck says

You could make exo's stronger, but I don't like gameplay with exo's to begin with. Just like I don't like ranged spores, or flamethrowers. I think all 3 of these change the gameplay for the worse. Doesn't mean I am pushing to take them out of the game. I think for comp mod, we want the higher skilled abilities to play a bigger role in the outcome. I don't see the reason to make the lower skilled abilities stronger. I don't think people are considering this enough. Just because something is in the game doesn't mean it isn't on a scale of casual to comp mechanic. If you buff lower skilled stuff, you hurt what comp does so well.

I understand the logic behind optimizing for top-skilled teams/players. I can understand why you and others want "higher skilled abilities to play a bigger role". I really do. But I also fear this misses so many aspects of NS2. In a sense, it misses the team organization and adaptability aspect. We can compare the top level team to the next top level team, and my point is probably moot - those two balanced teams can compete around "higher skilled abilities". But let me just say, there are many levels of skill – especially when you look at something like the Gather system. We all want good gathers, I think. When you limit this game to pure skill (aim), and not other tactics, you change the entire scope of what NS2 is. You make the skilled players have to work even harder who inevitably become more frustrated because the less skilled players can do less to contribute.

a) Not able to kill the lifeforms? Fine, let’s try an Exo-Suit and then maybe we can get that pesky fade down.

b) Can’t push the hive down this hallway because of spores? Fine, let’s purchase that flamethrower so that the other guys on my team can push without draining the Team Res.

c) Skulks and Fades have to defend the hive against these marines and can’t res-bite? Fine, let’s research Spores – Oh wait, we can’t. We need that third Hive… ;)

Now for the conundrum: How do we implement “lower skilled” abilities and paths without making it too OP? I don’t quite know. I just know I have a problem with the idea we need to focus everything on individual high-skill.

3) If you do buy the FT to counter bilebomb, does it actually kill your ARCS too? That seems a bit silly to have to counter damage with more damage. For this reason, I would suggest leaving the player FF damage, but to consider removing the structure/ARC FF damage.

I'll review your flamethrower idea with people.

Your point about not focusing on individual skill, you made the best case I think against it. I'm not sure if I really agree with it, but I think I understand the passion from which you come from. I do think pve stuff and more casual elements to the gameplay does make the game more interesting. The question is, how much do you focus on interesting, and how much do you focus on making sure the game is won by people outperforming the other and not luck/spam mechanics? You want the winning team to play better and make better decisions. There is probably a lot of degrees to all this and really hard to nail down what the right answer is.

We also wanted to make additional changes to Comp Mod to hopefully change the game-play on marines somewhat. The idea is, there might be too much incentive for marines to sit on their res and wait for jps. We are changing Catpacks and Jps (testing in gathers, we can always make additional changes or change it back). I want to make this clear, this idea is not intended to make marines way stronger. If the cheaper cat packs result in that, we will change the cat packs back. The goal is to make marines consider using cat packs over jp's as we feel like the gameplay could be stronger. So even if we have to make changes later, it might result in more cat packs being used, and marines rushing earlier in the game.

Please share your thoughts.

Latest changes to comp mod in the last day or so:
1) function Gorge:GetAirFriction()
local speedFraction = self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() / self:GetMaxSpeed()
return math.max(0.15 * speedFraction, 0.12) - We went over possible changes to initial speed, but it was decided this allows for gorges to keep their initial speed, but would decrease the max speed gorges can move around the map which is really high right now.
2) Move spores to biomass 7 and kSporesDustDamagePerSecond = 20
3) +kMineHealth = 70 kMineArmor = 5
4) kMetabolizeHealthRegain = 10
5) Remove lockdown timer on exos
6) Reduce bilebomb from Contamination from 3 to 1
7) Catpacks cost changed to 2 from 3.
8) Jetpack cost changed to 20 from 15 for marine players and for commander to drop jps.

things that comp mod could be without:
Rupture moved to Biomass 4
Nutrient Mist requires infestation to place
Cysts will be damaged while unconnected
Cyst maturation rate reduced to 10 from 45
Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs
Skulks do not gain health from biomass after biomass 4 (84 hp)
Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes to 4.5% from 7%
Lerk spores moved to Biomass 7 from Biomass 4
Lerk spores damage per second increased to 20 from 15
Fade hitbox changes reverted, hitbox is now smaller
Advanced Metabolize health point regeneration reduced to 10 from 15

Increased Mine hp to 70 from 20
Mine damage increased to 140 from 125
Machine Gun weight decreased to match shotgun
Jetpack cost increased to 20 from 15
Removed lockout timer for entering exos bought by teammates
Catalyst pack cost decreased to 2 from 3


These changes are mostly minor balance changes, that unneededly remove comp mod from vanilla without having an immence impact on balance. Meaning, the transisiton from pub to comp is FAR easier. And we do want people to focus on learning to play ns2 in a competitive manner instead of learning all these new rules.
The only things that I feel like could stay is the fade hitbox and the exo timer.

i dont know why people on the forums always post their OPINIONS and never back ANYHTING UP at all. it's hilarious to watch but it has to be annoying as fuck to be in deck's position when everyone just thinks they can rant on here without having to argue properly.
you're not arguing at all, ixian, you're only assuming people believe you on the spot. how about you explain every single point why it's unnecessary, and then we can have a proper shittalking discussion. revert fade hitboxes lul, keep op spores lul, revert to op cysts lul, revert to completely useless mines lul

Ixian says

things that comp mod could be without:
Rupture moved to Biomass 4
Nutrient Mist requires infestation to place
Cysts will be damaged while unconnected
Cyst maturation rate reduced to 10 from 45
Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs
Skulks do not gain health from biomass after biomass 4 (84 hp)
Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes to 4.5% from 7%
Lerk spores moved to Biomass 7 from Biomass 4
Lerk spores damage per second increased to 20 from 15
Fade hitbox changes reverted, hitbox is now smaller
Advanced Metabolize health point regeneration reduced to 10 from 15

Increased Mine hp to 70 from 20
Mine damage increased to 140 from 125
Machine Gun weight decreased to match shotgun
Jetpack cost increased to 20 from 15
Removed lockout timer for entering exos bought by teammates
Catalyst pack cost decreased to 2 from 3

Out of the ones you listed, I think the one's that could be changed and may not hurt/kill comp gameplay are:

1) Rupture on biomass 4. This was just a feeling people had when comp mod was first being put together that having a com be able to parasite marines in the beginning of the game felt wrong. This probably wouldn't change the game a lot though to revert the rupture change as it's not easy to pull off a good rupture anyways or I don't see it used much.
2) Cyst maturation rate reduced to 10 from 45 - this was mostly a number we picked because we had low hp cysts. Doesn't seem to make much sense to have a 45 sec maturity rate to a cyst that has 180 hp max all over the map. I don't see how this changes the game enough or makes vanilla commanders have to make changes enough to warrant reverting back.
3) Skulks do not gain health from biomass after biomass 4 (84 hp) - this is a quality of the team fights change. Skulks once they get leap and are helping out in massive group fights mid to late game are annoying to kill once they get a bunch over 100 hp. I think it makes the team fights better to keep the skulks around 100 hp. This I don't think would kill the game if we reverted this back, but I do think this is a quality of team fights change.
4) Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes to 4.5% from 7% - this probably wouldn't kill the gameplay if we reverted this back. I heard from at least one lerk player the power of the crush lerk spikes though and it was making it easy, perhaps too easy. Again, this is similar to the skulk change, it's a quality of team fight change. We could revert it back, but I think the team fights are playing well right now.
5) Jetpack cost increased to 20 from 15 - we want to playtest this first. I think this could be better for the game overall.
6) Advanced Metabolize health point regeneration reduced to 10 from 15 - we want to play test this to see if this is really needed/better
7) Machine Gun weight decreased to match shotgun - this was requested by people when comp mod was first being created. It doesn't really matter since machine guns are hardly used either way. I don't see how this is a bad thing though to make it slightly more fun to use. Yes this could be reverted back.
8) Removed lockout timer for entering exos bought by teammates - multiple people requested this as it doesn't make sense to have this for comp. Sure it doesn't really need to be changed either, but doesn't make sense to have it in the game.
9) Catalyst pack cost decreased to 2 from 3 - we want to play test this first as well. This could very well be op'd. We want to see how it plays out.

Most of the other things I think really do make comp gameplay better and actually makes the game more interesting/fun to play.

Allow me then, bauerjankins, to write alot of the same things at every single one, instead of summarising the reasoning in the end.

Rupture moved to Biomass 4
-unneeded change. Its the effect that is too long if anything, so take it from 10 down to 2-5 seconds. Its easy to dodge, and costly early game anyway.
Nutrient Mist requires infestation to place
-I copypasted the wrong one apparently. this is the one that should be removed: "Nutrient Mist no longer preserves structures off infestation". This is the OP part. Not that nutrient mist can be placed anywhere.
Cysts will be damaged while unconnected
- A small change that does have impact. Cysts are already easy to clear. With the low health, they simply pop too early, for the alien team to respond and the comm to replace them in time. Makes khamming less fun. Small impact - just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Cyst maturation rate reduced to 10 from 45
- Cysts are already easy AF to kill. See above also. just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs
-Small change, make eggs more expensive instead or just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Skulks do not gain health from biomass after biomass 4 (84 hp)
-If anyone can handle skulks with much HP, its the competitive scene. just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes to 4.5% from 7%
-What lerk in their right mind takes crush to spike marines? They'd either want regen early, or carapace to fight the w2-w3 rifles.
Lerk spores moved to Biomass 7 from Biomass 4
-Nerf the damage instead from 15 to 5 or just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Lerk spores damage per second increased to 20 from 15
-See above
Fade hitbox changes reverted, hitbox is now smaller
-For the sake of the feel for new comp players, remove it, to keep it close to vanilla. If high divs really can't fade without this, keep it.
Advanced Metabolize health point regeneration reduced to 10 from 15
-small change, and AFAIK its interacting with the soft healing cap. just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.

Increased Mine hp to 70 from 20
-just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay. Skulks parasiting. Forcing 3 parasites out of a resbiting skulk, is already really strong and delays resbiting alot. Or follow wobs idea of making it 230 HP, and increase the hitbox to the point where it is possible to bite them, meaning mines take 3 bites and a parasite.
Mine damage increased to 140 from 125
-I guess this is about carapace skulks? I honestly dont know. just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay. Will reconsider as new info comes to light.
Machine Gun weight decreased to match shotgun
-Small difference. MCGs are barely used anyway, just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Jetpack cost increased to 20 from 15
- Minor change with minimal impact. If marines cannot win on 3 waves on JPs they can't do it on 2 either. just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay.
Removed lockout timer for entering exos bought by teammates
-just remove it to be closer to the vanilla gameplay. I don't remember seeing a single case of a marine jumping out and another marine needing to jump into the exo. First time i was impacted by this was yesterday. Never had a situation that actually was touched by this in comp.
Catalyst pack cost decreased to 2 from 3
-CPs are already plenty powerful, and has extreeme utility and chasedown potential. This kind of impact need to be expensive. Don't touch CPs, they are expensive but worth it. With this change, they are going to be redico-fucking-lus

We will discuss reverting the changes you mentioned. The one's I think that have the most chance of being reverted (not sure if any will be) are:

1) Rupture on biomass 4.

2) Skulks do not gain health from biomass after biomass 4 (84 hp)

3) Nerfed crush effectiveness on Lerk Spikes to 4.5% from 7%

4) Machine Gun weight decreased to match shotgun

The other one's are either: too early to make the call on, some may have a bigger impact, or don't need to be changed. I will try to bring up your whole list. I think when we start changing things like lifeform eggs, or keeping disconnecting cysts alive, people are going to start wondering if this is the right direction for comp. Sometimes I get the feeling (I could be wrong) that people also want their own changes from vanilla, but don't want a huge list of changes. So when you look at the current list of changes, it seems like a lot. Most are minor tweaks, where if they make the gameplay slightly better, what's the harm? Sure, it's another line to look at different from vanilla, but the results are what I care about.

I don't want to make major gameplay changes that people have already decided why it's better to have the comp mod like it is in a 6v6 environment. Good example is lifeform eggs, you may think lifeform eggs should be in the game, but you agree health bars shouldn't be. Or perhaps you like that aliens lose their abilities right when the hive goes down, but another person might think that's too big of a change from vanilla. These are major changes to the game that we have already decided on is in the best interest of 6v6.

Deck says

I think when we start changing things like lifeform eggs, or keeping disconnecting cysts alive, people are going to start wondering if this is the right direction for comp.

Eggs, were too powerful, and aliens would always have a lifeform. Eggs was especially OP since you just could save up for onos. This was the effect of the problem. The problem is that comms can drop eggs and get pve and support the field meanwhile. If it is a decision between one of the two, its starts to be "balanced. AKA, make eggs really expensive. Disconnected cysts taking damage was ok when cysts had tons of HP. Now that they dont, they just die too fast, and it is one of the most boring things to do as a comm. Its easy anyway to clear the cysts now that its only 180 HP. But if you want to clear a room of cysts, you really should have to be able to see the cysts in the room, and not just clear the one cyst outside the room.

Deck says

Most are minor tweaks, where if they make the gameplay slightly better, what's the harm? Sure, it's another line to look at different from vanilla, but the results are what I care about.

Most are minor tweaks indeed. Even if they had a positive impact on the game, the harm is that competitive NS2 is walking away from vanilla, which means that new players have to leap a bigger distance to reach it, while the actual gameplay, ie. laneblocking, pinching, crushing, baiting and other basic competitive strategies dont get the focus it deserves when they have to keep up with this series of changes.

A result you 100% should care about, and i think it should be your main priority is to make the transition from vanilla to as easy as possible. The easier it is, the easier it is to get more players, which we need now more than ever. Balance is ofcourse an issue if the hitboxes for fades are unplayable and result in 90% marine wins for the top teams, so thats an easy, but close 2nd priority.

To counter spores better, change how the medpacks work instead. Meaning the healing of the 25 HOT from the medpack is active for, what, 5 seconds, and keeps healing despite reaching 100 HP. Spores are no longer OP for the fight, but rather require the marine comm to have res in the bank for a hive assault, meaning the cooperation and timing of a hive attack is the difficult part, and the execution, which people have pointed out is retardedly hard, is going to be easier.

Ixian says

Deck says

I think when we start changing things like lifeform eggs, or keeping disconnecting cysts alive, people are going to start wondering if this is the right direction for comp.

Eggs, were too powerful, and aliens would always have a lifeform. Eggs was especially OP since you just could save up for onos. This was the effect of the problem. The problem is that comms can drop eggs and get pve and support the field meanwhile. If it is a decision between one of the two, its starts to be "balanced. AKA, make eggs really expensive. Disconnected cysts taking damage was ok when cysts had tons of HP. Now that they dont, they just die too fast, and it is one of the most boring things to do as a comm. Its easy anyway to clear the cysts now that its only 180 HP. But if you want to clear a room of cysts, you really should have to be able to see the cysts in the room, and not just clear the one cyst outside the room.

Deck says

Most are minor tweaks, where if they make the gameplay slightly better, what's the harm? Sure, it's another line to look at different from vanilla, but the results are what I care about.

Most are minor tweaks indeed. Even if they had a positive impact on the game, the harm is that competitive NS2 is walking away from vanilla, which means that new players have to leap a bigger distance to reach it, while the actual gameplay, ie. laneblocking, pinching, crushing, baiting and other basic competitive strategies dont get the focus it deserves when they have to keep up with this series of changes.

A result you 100% should care about, and i think it should be your main priority is to make the transition from vanilla to as easy as possible. The easier it is, the easier it is to get more players, which we need now more than ever. Balance is ofcourse an issue if the hitboxes for fades are unplayable and result in 90% marine wins for the top teams, so thats an easy, but close 2nd priority.

Your 2nd point is a great point and should be really important. The question is, is the minor tweaks that have the best chance at being reverted really impacting a vanilla player much? Perhaps a little, I'm sure all the little changes add up. We might as well clean up where we can. But you could make the other argument, if you're making the gameplay slightly worse by doing so, is those 5 lines of code really worth changing back? I tried to pick out the things that I think could def be changed and not ruin what we have now.

Your point about lifeform eggs and cysts is not a bad one. You could make lifeform eggs really expensive. I'm not sure if that is fair to the marine team though. You did a great job killing the lifeforms, you know what the alien players on the field have been doing with their res, so you know what to expect next. The problem with lifeform eggs is the unpredictability for the marines, and is that good for comp gameplay? I like the element that you can try to predict what lifeforms you'll see and when. With lifeform eggs, it's all up in the air, even if they are expensive. You don't know what the alien commander is doing with his/her res. Which can also have a feeling of anti-climatic. You killed their best player's lifeform, and here comes that lerk or fade again because the alien commander saved up to ensure that player would get another one. I think that takes the wind out of the sails of the marine team. One of the best parts of NS2 is the fear of losing your lifeforms and the thrill of killing one. Having lifeform eggs in the game takes away from one of the best parts of NS2.

The cyst point I like better. We could keep cysts alive since they do have low hp when they are disconnecting. This actually might play fine.

Deck says

Most are minor tweaks, where if they make the gameplay slightly better, what's the harm? Sure, it's another line to look at different from vanilla, but the results are what I care about.

Yep. I see the point of Ixian, but honestly, if you want to stick as close to vanilla as possible, why not deleting comp mod then and play vanilla?

The worse UWE makes NS2, the more comp mod has to fix. And I can't read a single argument against those changes you listed besides "too different from vanilla".

Home says

. And I can't read a single argument against those changes you listed besides "too different from vanilla".

It should be obvious to you that i find it an important part. But there are plenty of other reasons or alternatives to the current changes written :)

"The problem with lifeform eggs is the unpredictability for the marines, and is that good for comp gameplay? I like the element that you can try to predict what lifeforms you'll see and when. With lifeform eggs, it's all up in the air, even if they are expensive. you don't know what the alien commander is doing with his/her res. Which can also have a feeling of anti-climatic." -Deck

That is the other side of the coin indeed. However, you do know what the alien comm is spending his res on. You can count RTs, PvE, drifters, lifeform upgrades.

I'm imagining 70 res for a lerk egg. 130 for a fade egg. Both with biomass restrictions. Those kinda numbers in general. Then it becomes a decision between 10 pieces of PvE, or do you want your carry player to have a fade in reserve? Or do you want 2-3 hive drops to play around with strategicly?

Ixian says

"The problem with lifeform eggs is the unpredictability for the marines, and is that good for comp gameplay? I like the element that you can try to predict what lifeforms you'll see and when. With lifeform eggs, it's all up in the air, even if they are expensive. you don't know what the alien commander is doing with his/her res. Which can also have a feeling of anti-climatic." -Deck

That is the other side of the coin indeed. However, you do know what the alien comm is spending his res on. You can count RTs, PvE, drifters, lifeform upgrades.

I'm imagining 70 res for a lerk egg. 130 for a fade egg. Both with biomass restrictions. Those kinda numbers in general. Then it becomes a decision between 10 pieces of PvE, or do you want your carry player to have a fade in reserve? Or do you want 2-3 hive drops to play around with strategicly?

So your agrument is, at the risk of having one of the best parts of the game feeling anti-climatic, the game is more interesting for the alien tech path if they have the option of going all out on saving up for their best player to re-lerk or re-fade at the expense of other defenses. Sure, I see the point. This goes back to other people's points about casual things being in the game more like flamethrowers. The game is more interesting with more options, but again I think the comp game works well because it doesn't just focus on this. I see your point though, how do you get the balance right? To me, it would be one of the things where if the tres was too low for lerk or fade eggs, that would be annoying. If it was too high, it wouldn't be used anyways.

I also find this similar to onos boneshield regen. Part of the reason in my opinion it's taken out of comp game-play is it is anti-climatic. You're chasing an onos, you know the hp of the onos, you're about to get the big kill and the anti kill button is activated. So yes, you could have this in the game as well. Don't you think not having the anti-climatic annoying things in the game is better though?

The last pieces of arguements that knocks me over the edge is that its only extreemely rarely going to be used, if ever, and its closer to vanilla, making the transition from pub grub to comp pup, which means a better likelyness for more players.

Right now we need more players. Once they are back, I'd dare say you can create an evolving metagame with no problems. Just dont make it now, when we need players the most. Hell, thats one of the reasons people started with comp mod in the first place, back in, what, season 2? Season 3? Back when there was tons of players. That isn't the case anymore, and repeating how comp mod used to work isn't logical or smart. Comp mod need to accept a different role, as the scene has changed. Comp mod and the comp scene no longer fits together, and comp mod can't afford not to change.

The onos boneshield is retarded and UWE realises this, which is the reason they are looking into boneshield in general:

"McGlaspie - Today at 11:46 AM
... Btw, I'm hopefully going to have a new Boneshield prototype worth testing in a week or less. Cheers!"
(taken from the internal UWE balance chat.)


Also, please stop these useless closed questions: "Don't you think not having the anti-climatic annoying things in the game is better though?"

Ixian says

The last pieces of arguements that knocks me over the edge is that its only extreemely rarely going to be used, if ever, and its closer to vanilla, making the transition from pub grub to comp pup, which means a better likelyness for more players.

Right now we need more players. Once they are back, I'd dare say you can create an evolving metagame with no problems. Just dont make it now, when we need players the most. Hell, thats one of the reasons people started with comp mod in the first place, back in, what, season 2? Season 3? Back when there was tons of players. That isn't the case anymore, and repeating how comp mod used to work isn't logical or smart. Comp mod need to accept a different role, as the scene has changed. Comp mod and the comp scene no longer fits together, and comp mod can't afford not to change.

The onos boneshield is retarded and UWE realises this, which is the reason they are looking into boneshield in general:

"McGlaspie - Today at 11:46 AM
... Btw, I'm hopefully going to have a new Boneshield prototype worth testing in a week or less. Cheers!"
(taken from the internal UWE balance chat.)


Also, please stop these useless closed questions: "Don't you think not having the anti-climatic annoying things in the game is better though?"

Well I'm glad they are looking into it. It's not as much of a problem in pub for a couple reasons right now. People don't always use it, and the 62 pres cost keeps things somewhat in check. When you get a bunch of experienced players as onos in a pub server though, it really is unfair to the marine team. It's a tough thing for them to balance, but we will review the changes they make to boneshield and see if it works for comp. Yes it's a closed question somewhat, but you can disagree that it's not annoying or anti-climatic to you. I think you get why it's changed, you just happen to side with the idea that everything in the game could be balanced, or almost everything can be. Other people believe when you nerf something enough, you should just take it out of the game like focus. We have at least a few examples that we can keep bringing up. No one has all the answers. This is a lot of guessing and watching game-play and people's opinions. The game is too complex for anyone to have the perfect answer.

I think someone said it well yesterday, the game isn't really meant to be balanced. The game is meant for there to be enough avenues or ways to go around stuff to still be successful. That was basically the jist, and I agree with that. I don't know how you can ever get to a point where you go, NS2 is perfectly balanced. That might lead more credence to your points about leaving almost everything in the game.

I will see if we can clean up some of the changes/revert some things that don't need to be changed.