LOL @complaining about a deserved ban; with prior warning and provocative behavior ( "ban me i won't play when trademark plays" )
no reason to dispute this ban because of intentional trolling and no reason NOT to show up for the gather...
when LOME and SIMPLE agree that 48 hours are deserved then it HAS to be the case lol
i'm probably speaking for the rest of the gather community when i say that the ban(s) should even be extended for this kind of behavior but i guess banning people is not a good idea right now
Why are there still some people complaining and bitching about a ban that was lifted months ago?
Zefram banned Trademark a couple of months ago for cheating but for several reasons, he wasn't banned permanently but only for a season. As some of the other bans that were handled at that time. We can obviously enforce the duration of the next banishments, making it for a year or even, forever as long as the player is caught cheating. It's something that could be done if players feel this way. In the other hand, we are not going to extend a ban that has been lifted already. Trademark has a second chance to prove that he is not cheating anymore (and to me so far, he has behaved correctly), which of course can be checked and controled through different tools. We will never be 100% sure, that's the truth. I gotta admit this point.
In fact, the solution is quite simple, those who don't want to play with Trademark, just don't join gathers. From the time you've signed up for it, you play, if not, you're banned. If, in addition to not join, and this, willingly, you decide to start some propaganda and try to convince the others to not join either, you probably deserve a longer ban. Rules apply to everyone.
If you wish to go this way @Dean0, I don't even know why you're complaining. First ban is indeed 24hours when it's Gather related only but it appeared that you've been pretty good at stirring up drama outside of the Gathers and then impact the whole community by your actions. Therefore, 48hours ban seems well-deserved.
It might have been a huge mistake from the previous staff to not ban forever those who were caught cheating but in all the cases, the current staff will never get back on those prior bans and edit them without any new evidence of cheating.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
I never made "Propaganda", simple even needed to ask me in steam why i say i leave. i left the first gather when he joined and joined the next gather with 4 new people, and one minute later they regathered what i didnt knew an he was in. Simple said thats no reason. yea for you maybe, you can give him that chance if you want but i dont want to do that, and that has nothing to do with the other who has also been banned. The Problem is that he know about this and leaves the gather, wait for people to join and joins at the end....
The most offtalk in gatherchat was discussing with bauer because he is arguing with people while he has nothing to do with all this, like the post before.
Again, guys you can do what you want. But till this is done i m out of gather.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Have you never done such things to play? Also, Simple was one of the admins who apparently banned you and he's not from LuckyChams. Just a question, what would you do if you were Trademark? And ignore the kind of messages like 'I wouldn't have cheated anyway'.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
if i were trademark i would be ashamed to the ground and live with the consequences... but hey, there are no consequenses, lets try it again. sry dude but communitys dont acceppt things like that, even if admins do.
There is a reason why a VAC ban is forever.
Nope but you can ban people for joining a gather and not play, as much as you can enforce bans for trying to stir up more drama for no reason. Those two reasons independently would not deserve 48 hours ban but seems that in addition to not play despite joining, they willingly attempt to convince people to not play. What about the other players who joined and didn't care about your opinion? You have the right to have one but why would you be allowed to fuck up their fun and leave the gather?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
The guy was banned for 6 months, excluded him from two seasons. I wouldn't call this 'no consequences'. And again, you'd be okay to ban again people who have seen their punishment lifted? The player is free but since the staff changed, you're banned again, sorry for this.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Actully what you say is propaganda, because nobody was tell to anyone to Not join or leave the gather, for example i was invite Daemon to the gather but after Trademark joined i left and i never told daemon to leave it too, nobody was told to leave!
Those bans have been taken accordingly to the admins who were online at that time. Simple and lome, both agreed to raise the bans. And it's not at all propaganda, it's what I read on our admins chats but I guess other admins would be more than glad to enlighten this point.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
i never complained about getting him banned again, i can see the situation. i m complaining about i get jumped over 2 warnings and a 24hr ban. thats why the topic says "first ever". but i dont want to argue about this, i know and knew your standing point about the lifted ban for him, so there is no reason to do that. i will try to avoid him like before like yesterday, only that yesterday he joined as the last player because he knew about this, like the others. I left the gathers before when he joined and i will do that again.
the only thing what makes me sad is that i got to number '4' in your punishment list only because i dont want to play with him, like i said in the gatherchat, and to simple(for those who can understand this):
simple: warum bist du raus?
daDean: weil der trademark im anderen gather war und nur neue im neuen, auf einmal voll und er wieder dabei
simple: kein grund
daDean: is mir egal
daDean: ich spiel mit dem nich
And to compare with the real life, you will not send someone in jail again once his punishment is lifted, even less to send him in jail permanently. The first goal when you send somebody to jail is to rehabilitate the guy, to make sure he can get back to the real life and never act again as he did in the past.
Excuse me but if you disagree with this statement, I'm happy that you have nothing to say about IRL justice related stuff. The world would be even darker and less pleasant. You'll also need more prisons to receive those convicted persons. So think a bit about what you all keep saying and you'll finally understand that we won't ban someone until we know for sure he cheats.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Glad to know that some people can figure out how things work. But you've been banned for leaving the gather. It'll be up to the Gather Admins to lift or to reduce its duration. I'm only talking about Trademark's case here.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Free all Rapists!!!! they didnt rape anyone while they was in Jail they are worthfull members of society let them be babysiters for you childs PLEASE BRING LIGHT INTO DARKNESS
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
I'm sorry that i'm poking the nose into other people's affairs, but i think we should be more friendly and united in this small and decreasing community, if we don't want let it became even less.
I don't know why people won't play with Trademark, I'm ok with him, but if they don't want - it's their choice and their right. So if Trademark joined last, but for the people is totally unacceptable to play with him, it's seems legit that they leave gather, because they couldn't click "Leave gather" button. Yes, they got a deserved ban, because they broke the rules, but what are the benefits of this ban? Rules are created to support community, but in this situation strict following to rules only weakens it. It is necessary to think, what purpose is carried out by rules. And what we want as community. If a main goal - "I want to play and if someone break game, it is necessary to remove him", decision looks legit. But if we want to be more forward-thinking, it was the decision of low quality. And I have a question for admins, as the main representatives of the community: what purpose do you aim? If the "more solid community" i think you should reconsider decision. If "I want to play", i think we should think about the competence of administrators. Of course, if we have a democracy here.
Definitely, the best solution would be conciliation of those people and Trademark, but as third parties, we can not directly influence it. So admins as representatives of community, must think what benefit to the community bring their solutions.
Sorry for bad english, google translate helps me.
There is a reason why these bans happened though: you cannot tolerate this kind of behavior...
Even if it means that gathers will be short on players for two days we have to live with this, because leaving this unpunished would be the same as leaving cheaters unpunished - to make a REALLY GOOD comparison like izo just did. If people can go around behaving like dicks without fearing any consequences in a small community it's going to die much faster than if you just ban them for some time to stop this kind of behavior.
And to keep the salt going: Dear pegida initiator izo, pls pretend to be trademark so this madness finally stops. thx
Punishment can not force a person to "love" the other. Punishment is not the best way to resolve the conflict. Conflicts weaken community. If in response to the conflict to create the bigger conflict, it does not help the community to be stronger. They are not kids, and no sense to educate them by punishment.
I strongly disagree. I'd like to live in world where people would understand by themselves the mistakes they've done and start to behave correctly. Unfortunately, it's far from being the case right here. Punishments are made to protect the community from others behavior, and at best, to convince the people that they did something wrong, to change their mind and to begin acting as they should. If you ban someone from joining the gather and not playing, you reduce the possibility that the said guy will do this again. It works the same when it comes to cheaters. It's also why it's working this way IRL.
I agree it should have been 24 hours bans, not more as any other bans, but those admins decided to prevent these players to sign in for the gathers for the weekend. Some people here have stated good arguments, mainly Dean0, therefore all the bans are reduced to 24hours. I won't lift them though 'cause such behavior can't remain unpunished.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
It works in big communities. In small, like this, where each person has an important, it harms. They got a ban. Yes, maybe they change their mind. But what if not? What if they still totally unacceptable to play with some person? Does this mean, if they do not want, then you need to punish them? You can't force a person to want something by punishing. You can only make him give up something. If they refuse to play with Trademark, and they refuse to refuse to do it (not sure that i translated it correctly), is it means, that community becomes stronger? I'm not sure. I think it is more likely to weaken the community than to help.
Strict rules is good. Good for creating a strong community and attract new players. But we have problem, that no more new players come. It is necessary to hold that we have. It is necessary to be more tolerant to each other behavior. Those guys must be more tolerant to Trademark. And we must be more tolerant to their behavior, if they don't want to play with him. They didn't leave gather just for troll or fun. But because they have something unacceptable. And you are not accept this behavior. They not accept, and you not accept. This mean the split. Split is not good for community. No, of course it's good for big community, if you wanna split "bad" persons from "good" persons. It helps to keep a "good" (in their view) part of the community. But where the "bad" persons make up a big part of the community, split only destroy it.
This guys have conflict with Trademark. And you make a new conflict, trying to educate them. 2 conflicts worse than 1. Better 0, but if couldn't have less, is better to increase number?
In bigger communities, you necessarily must be stricter than we are right now, because indeed, we're far too lenient and it's even what those people criticize. Your point is right though, anyone in this community is important and that's why we will not accept stupid behavior at the expense of the others. It's not about not doing what we want, we're not anyone's mother or something, but the forums and gathers have to follow rules that were created to keep a respectful atmosphere. A thief caught in the act for instance, you'll punish him for robbing stuff that didn't belong to him, right? You do it to protect the community, right? You do it to make sure he won't do it again and hurt the community?
Such actions aren't something tolerable. That's basically the case here, I'm fine with players not wishing to join a gather because Trademark is in, that's their right, their opinion. They're free to do whatever they want to. What isn't acceptable is to join a gather, notice that Trademark jumped in at the very last minute to get the slot and the possibility to play and then 3 or 4 people over 12 who decide to quit. It breaks the rules and prevents the other players who were supposedly here to play and have fun, to do so. So yes, it aims to protect the community. Are we supposed to defend those who were wrong or those who did nothing, who just meant to play? Or just leave it be and too bad, you joined the wrong gather.
So you tolerate this kind of behavior? Those guys basically prevent Trademark but also all the other players who signed in for the record to play and enjoy a gather.
I'd rather want to see a community dying with honesty and humanity than a community that survives a bit longer with no rules and promulgating some sort of segregation towards some players. "One person's freedom ends where another's begins." If you let this kind of stuff appear, you'll see soon more of this stupid behavior.
We already know that we won't convince some players that Trademark deserves the right to play. We will not even try because it's wasted effort for nothing. What everyone has to remember and to understand is, you don't sign in if you don't wanna play. You don't sign in if you know people will start shouting out and bitching. But even if a gather doesn't suit you perfectly and you're in, fuck it, take on you and make an effort, what does an hour represent in your life? You would have played with someone you don't like, or something, too bad, you'll think about it next time. Same goes for Trademark who willingly joined a gather he knew he wouldn't have been welcomed. Sometimes you gotta think about the others, and not only yourself. So sorry to try to make some people understand that.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Okay so I disagree with Pelargir lowering your bans to 24 hours, but that's the case. The way I see it, there are certain behaviors that warrant higher degrees of punishment. Yes there are situations like leaving a gather before its finished that you should get a warning for, but admins have to use their own judgement when for when to escalate the degree of punishment. Yesterday, I verbally warned you guys several times, told you that you were acting childish, was told "BAN ME I DON'T CARE," and then once it happens you all complain. I even told izO himself two days ago:
4:57 PM - loMe: don't play if u don't want
4:57 PM - izO: we wont
4:57 PM - loMe: pretty childish but thats your choice
The gather this all started on was Gather #10077. The gather was maybe 8/12 initially when Trademark joined, and then all four of the banned players left the gather. Fine. It filled up to about 7/12 again and then Trademark left (since no one was joining). Then LyDDa and inmate rejoined and it made it to 9/12 and then 10/12 when Trademark rejoined so I created a Gather Group event to finish filling it up. It took another 5 minutes before the Gather finally filled up, and at some point Trademark left again and was the last to join. The point is - they had several opportunities to leave knowing that Trademark was continuously joining and leaving. If they don't want to play with him, then leave the Gather and find something else to do.
Now, you'll notice that izO and DeanO were not even in the Gather above. We didn't even ban them until they repeated the same thing in the very next Gather #10078. That's now two gathers deliberately ruined over their childish behavior. Additionally, before we decided to ban them over this matter, it wasn't something haphazardly initiated. I discussed what was happening with other admins (Simple and Yaluzen) to get their input and we decided that a 48 hour ban was justified. Think about it this way - when a crime is committed there are varying degrees of punishment; public intoxication = a night sobering up, assault = a week in the slammer, murder = life in prison. Myself and several other thought that escalating the punishment to a two day ban was reasonable if not lenient.
The ensl community is small enough as it is. So while the admins can wave their flags of over-ruling-righteousness as high as they like, the reality is that banning some of the most active gather players and community members for 48hrs over pillow talk drama isnt helping anyone.
Plus TM is a douche, who would wanna play with him?
